It was neat to see Thomas Ran name-dropped in a New Yorker article. He's one of the most brutal keyboard reviewers on YouTube (and quite hilarious). I sent him some of my 3D printed key switches not too long ago and he did a teardown video:
Many have found the mechanical keyboard hobby to be quite deep... When you reach the point when you're ready to start designing your own key switches and actuation mechanisms contact me and I'll give you some advice :)
If you're curious what a 3D printed (analog hall effect) keyboard using 3D printed switches (and keycaps) looks like:
He’s said that he thinks his method of typing works fine and doesn’t lead to repetitive stress injuries, so he prefers it. I don’t remember which specific videos he said that in off the top of my head, though.
In my book, touch typing is being able to type without looking at the keys.
Technically it is possible to touch type with a single finger.
Of course, the more fingers you use, the faster you can type, probably needed to reach > 100 WPM, but I tend to spend much more time reading and thinking than typing usually, so in my case this is marginal.
I used to work with a guy with an impressive collection of highly customized mechanical keyboards who couldn’t touch type. I found it baffling, but the reality is that obsessions find you, not the other way around.
I think this is it. Some people are into owning fancy sports cars that they don't actually drive, building high-end gaming computers but not playing games, or buying vintage cameras but not using them to take pictures (note: I'm guilty of #2 and #3). It's basically being a collector who appreciates what's special about something, even if you don't actually use it much.
Um, excuse me what? That is touch typing. What you're thinking of is "home row", a specific method of touch typing. I also don't use home row, but I'm faster than a lot of people who do, and it absolutely counts as touch typing because I don't have to look at the keyboard at all.
If you can type at any speed while pecking at keys you must have muscles made of pure lightning.
That said, what he does certainly looks like either an imitation of touch typing while pressing random buttons, or a method of touch typing that I’m not aware of. It certainly looks too fast for him to be checking every letter he types.
It's not hard to learn to touch type from having some reference even without al\ fngers or both hands available.
My error rate is pretty high due to recently switching keyboard software, but I can manage about 40-50 wpm on a phone keyboard and my main reference points are the corners.
Interested in what you mean by your first sentence. What's a high speed in your mind? I can type prose at about 90 WPM on a Macbook with basically just my index fingers, without looking.
What I see as pecking is having two index fingers tap down on the keyboard after locating the required letter.
I’d be amazed if you can do 90 wpm with just your index fingers regardless of strategy though. With two fingers and an average of 4 letters per word you need to tap 90 / 60 = 1.5 * 4 = 6 / 2 = 3 letters per second per finger (more if your words are longer).
I trust you can do it, but I can’t imagine what that looks like.
Were you able to tell by watching the video if he was looking at the keyboard or not? If yes, how? Because the video only shows fingers hitting keys. There’s nothing about what is being typed or if the typist is looking at the keyboard.
I have not looked at video at all, but as a touchtypist I have a struggle not to set my index fingers on f/j.
I have seen some Internet touchtypists who claim they can use something else as keys to figuring up where their fingers are located (for example, lShift/rShift or Lenovo's clit) but in real world I have not seen any touchtypist who is not sticking his index finger on f/j constantly.
> When you reach the point when you're ready to start designing your own key switches and actuation mechanisms contact me and I'll give you some advice
By changing a few settings my 3D printed Void Switches can be cut down to 18mm from the bottom to the top of the keycap. I just uploaded some pictures so you can see how low profile they can get:
You could probably shave off another 1-1.5mm by printing some parts in resin (or switching to a teeny tiny nozzle) but I don't think that's enough to warrant the complexity or difficulties it would introduce during assembly.
For going shorter than that you can cut down the travel (the switch in the picture is 2mm of travel if memory serves), use a shorter keycap/stem, or go with a completely different mechanism (I have a few ideas but haven't had a chance to try them out yet).
A while ago I tried using CurviSlicer to FDM-3D print a keycap. It modifies G-code to make slightly-curved top surfaces.
The top of the keycap was nice, and wouldn't have needed any finishing. However, the slicer messed up the sides/insides of the keycap. Someone more motivated could try applying the curviness only to the 'dish' part of the keycap.
The key (haha) to printing great keycaps is to print them on their sides. That way their top surface is smooth (to your fingers) right off the printer. The keycaps in those images have not been post-processed in any way. That's exactly how they looked when I took them off the printer.
Very cool! I’ve been idly wondering how I could build a keyboard with smaller keys, for someone I know who is a little person. The 3D printed switches seem like a great option. It looks like some of the keys in that review were smaller than standard, how far could they be scaled down? Do you have a link to print instructions you can share?
The default switch width/length is 18mm to fit inside standard Cherry MX key switch cutouts (in a top plate) but you can shrink that down to probably 14mm (just change the parameters in the .scad). Alternatively, you could just cut a sheath-shaped hole in the top plate where you want the switches to go and then you wouldn't even need a switch body and could cram the switches really close together.
I used a trick like that with this silly fidget toy I made a while back:
The keyboard rabbit-hole gets pretty deep. I started off wanting a nicer typing experience, and ended up realising so much about the traditional keyboard designs didn't make sense to me (here's someone nicely summing up the reasons why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrska7UU7BE).
The keyboard hobby has led me to realize a few major things-
1. The capslock key should not be where it is. In no sane layout should such an easy to reach key serve such a niche purpose.
2. The spacebar is a massive waste of space. I LOVE split space layouts (typing on a mercutio right now). Having all 3 "spaces" act as space on tap helps, and makes it easy to hold for modifiers.
3. Having the numpad/arrow keys right under my right hand (arrows on jkli, numpad basically on jkl = 456, functions in the same layout) is SO much faster than having to move your hand to get to those kinds of keys. The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster.
I'm now at my end game (mercutio 40 on my "entertainment" machine, a crkbd at work (soon be be a cornish zen), and a discipline 60 for my gaming machine....seriously rougelikes are the only reason it's not all 40's), and it's been a hell of a path. I really hope the market expands a bit more because there's a lot of nice things when people start getting into the hobby, but it's a rough hobby to get into given how expensive it can get.
Just going to throw this out there because I haven’t seen it referenced much on HN, but as someone who spends 8+ hours a day in one flavor of AutoCAD or another I am constantly cycling between caps lock and standard. Nearly every modern plan set produced is done in all caps, and with nearly all standard office communication being done through email or slack switching from one to the other easily is really quite important to me and my colleagues.
Even in cases like that (SQL is sometimes supposed to be all caps), it's pretty trivial to either make it all caps, or to throw caps on another layer and quickly access it.
It might actually justify it's positional priority in your case if you're literally switching between CAD and normal communication a ton, but even then i suspect you wouldn't mind it somewhere else.
This is like the one valid caps lock use case you hear about. Would having caps lock be somewhere near scroll lock be a bad thing even in your use case? For the vast majority of people and use cases it is a near pointless key in a prime spot. Even worse it USED to be that ctrl and caps lock were swapped on early Apple II, IBM PC keyboards but for some unknown reason IBM decided to swap em.
Numpad removal is similar. I'm a heavy CAD/spreadsheet user and I cannot live without a numpad, which is by far the fastest way to input numbers. Most DIY builds, its the first thing to be removed.
Layout software like Indesign simply uses a Standard/All Caps/Small Caps setting that you can apply to a style for this, why would you need to type it all in caps?
When in Emacs I use a custom command that converts lowercase underscore-separated words to uppercase after typing the word out in lowercase so I don't have to use shift or capslock.
I think the capslock position is a holdover from manual typewriters. Pressing the shift or capslock keys actually lifted up a fair chunk of the internal metal of the thing, so it was fairly strenuous. You also use to do all-caps for headings and such much more often.
I learned to touch type on manual typewriters in school. I was the only boy in the class as it was geared towards secretarial work - but I knew I was going to have a career on computers so thought it was worthwhile.
As I believe the function of the caps/shift lock on most, if not all, manual typewriters that had it was to physically lock the shift key's mechanism down in some manner, its position above the shift key was also largely dictated by the mechanism, as it needs to be positioned along the shift key's arm.
The existence of the caps lock can be ascribed both to all-caps being more useful as a heading and for emphasis on manual typewriters, where only one typeface and size was available, as you point out, and to the substantial mechanism making it more difficult to hold the shift key down while typing.
Surprisingly, however, the size of caps lock on most modern keyboards doesn't seem to come from manual typewriters. At least on pre-1960s/70s manual typewriters, caps locks seem to be the same size as normal keys, if not smaller; shift keys are often larger, but are also not enormous. Most examples of large caps lock keys that I can find seem to start only one electric typewriters, exactly where they wouldn't seem as useful. It is possible that there are practical reasons why having a long keycap for a key requiring substantial force would be problematic for manual typewriters, but this still doesn't explain why the caps lock would become larger on electric typewriters, only why the shift might. So I'm left rather confused as to why they became the standard.
(Of course, on my keyboards, they are usually remapped to control, or to a control/escape combination.)
Most devs that had apple’s touch bar keyboard remapped caps to escape. I enjoyed that change so much that I did it everywhere. Voila, a useful key within easier reach… especially for vim.
It’s a rough “hobby” because all the options make it possible to build the perfect board but it takes a lot of trial and error to figure out what you really like.
I say “hobby” because I just started wanting a nice keyboard at the start and to be honest I find building boards boring.
Caps lock is where and how it is because its importance for typewriters. When you can’t change fonts, caps are important to realize hierarchy. I agree the contexts have now changed.
> The navigation keys being at my fingertips is ESPECIALLY useful as a coder where using things like home/end/pgup/pgdown can really help you move through your code faster.
This is why Vim key bindings are the first thing I install for any editor.
I’m curious about how you use spaces and arrows. Is it that you have space work on tab but on hold it becomes fn1 or allows you to jump to a different layer?
I don’t have split spaces but it had never occurred to me to use space as a mod!
yeah, dipping your toe in this hobby is like dipping your toe into a triple A MMORPG. Make sure you are prepared for the toll it may take on your productive years.
As I said in another part of this thread, I don't have any problem "dipping my toe in". It isn't difficult at all to enjoy using a good mechanical keyboard without becoming obsessed with it. My friends who use mechanical keyboards also don't have any problem with that kind of obsession. I guess it depends on the person.
I don’t get it though. What’s the payoff, marginally better comfort and typing speed or is it like having collectibles to own and show off? Personally, sure a mechanical keyboard is a little more satisfying to type on but who really cares.
There's another side to the mechanical keyboard community that is focused on ergonomics [1]. I personally use a Kinesis Advantage 2 [2] with an Adantage 360 [3] on preorder. These are not marginal improvements to my quality of life, they enable me to continue using a keyboard at all.
As for the very expensive, mostly standard layout keyboards... it's an expensive hobby with marginal improvements at best, but the same could be said about furniture purchases. Most people don't choose furniture based solely off its functional characteristics. They want something pleasant to look at, especially since it's something they're using every day for a long period of time. I think there's plenty of utility in that, though personally I would never pay the prices that these people do.
Same, split keyboard (with thumb cluster) may take some time to get used to, but it does improve the QoL for me. The major problem with this is that either the keyboards are relatively expensive or you have to DIY. I'm looking to clone the moonlander keyboard but modify its layout to redox, and print it by myself. DIY can cut down a lot of the cost.
Would love to get one (actually any split one), but they are crazy expensive. Add duties (I’m in the EU) and it goes beyond what I would be willing to spend for something that I can’t even try first. I don’t even need mechanical switches, wireless, backlight or programmability, but I will probably need two of them in the end.
DIY can lower the price, but it is a hustle and in the time needed is not free.
Maybe at some point Logitech will offer a split one for a more reasonable price, but I won’t hold my breath.
Be careful with split keyboards, or any keyboards with fewer keys or columns than usual, if you’re a European user. Many split layouts have a missing column on the right, where accent keys are located. One has to assign them to different keys or combos, which results in a substantially different typing habits with a steep learning curve, in my experience.
The unfortunate reality is you can't have both an inexpensive and prebuilt keyboard in this space. I'd suggest looking for a used Kinesis Advantage 1 or 2 on ebay as that might be a little more palatable and the used prices are fairly stable so you won't lose too much money if you find you don't like it.
Same here, although once I'd spent an absurd amount of money and then even more time, I finally, settled on a really good setup and haven't had the desire to change it. IRIS keyboard (https://keeb.io/products/iris-rev-4-keyboard-split-ergonomic...) with my own QMK keymap with 3 layers.
Pro'bly the most popular pre-built keyboard along the same lines is the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ The configuration user experience would be nicer with this.
It's not precisely the same, but the ZSA Moonlander has the same layout with stilts and a wrist rest so that you can position it how you feel best. The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
> The real winner is their Oryx firmware that makes reprogramming the keys on the board a breeze. It's the best investment I've made in my ergonomic health.
As a Moonlander owner who loves it, it's worth pointing out that most QMK-based boards (including the Moonlander itself with a third party firmware) can support the VIA system for similar easy GUI programming.
Not for everyone. For years I have preferred keyboards with Cherry MX switches, but I just buy fairly inexpensive ones used. Not really a rabbit hole at all.
That applies to basically any hobby though right? The perceived depth of the hobby is largely dependent on your desire to explore that depth. It can be incredibly deep for some, as evidenced by people designing their own switches - or shallow (for you) by saying Cherry is good enough.
Would you share your keymap? Curious how you're able to get all the necessary characters without making wrist-twisting layer combos. Or are you uisng chording?
- Home Row modifiers: putting Shift, Ctrl, Gui, Alt behind tap-hold functionality on the home row keys. (Now you don't need to strain your pinky finger with these, and can stay on the home row more).
- More thumb keys, with layering using tap-hold. This brings Backspace, Enter, Esc, Tab to within reach of the thumb, and provides a bunch of layers.
- Patterns on the LHS: Use of numpad idiom instead of number row (covering symbols, and function keys); symmetrical brackets, paretheses, and curly braces.
- Use of the HJKL idiom for stuff like arrow keys, volume control, home/end. etc.
Ah, cheers. This is very close to what I have actually, using a custom mapping heavily inspired by miryoku on a 3x6+3.
The reason I feel limited regardless is partly that even after giving it some time, it drove me nuts to have asymmetric layer keys (that is, I want to be able to activate the nav layer from either thumb), and some of the movements (notably pinky as a common modifier) ended up causing pain after a while. Plus I have need for at least another one due to often switching between a handful of languages and scripts (this would normally be addressed by AltGr - which would collide if at any a-z - plus an additional key only present on some standard layouts). So I feel a serious need for more thumb keys. And you somehow manage to get by with only two per side!
Maybe I'll take another attempt at getting used to deduplicating the thumbs before I start looking at printing custom PCBs... At least Ergogen mentioned above should make that a lot easier if I go there.
Ah, I use 3+2 thumbkeys. (Tab, Esc, Space; Backspace, Enter). If I did have to go down to 2+2, I'd put Tab on an easy to access layer.
That said, I think 2-3 is the number of thumb keys that are easy to reach. More than that, and it's harder for the thumb to reach, although allows access to more layers. -- Might as well put tap-hold modifiers on other keys, imo. (e.g. the outer column, or the lower row).
Also.. yeah, Miryoku's layer-opposite-the-thumbkey is elegant, but if it's too restrictive for your usecase, no need to respect it. I'd think e.g. having access to navkeys on the LHS would suit both mouse+keyboard usage, as well as when you've got two hands on the keyboard.
(The layout currently has more than 32 keys due to extra function keys on the sides and modifiers on the bottom that I only use very rarely. I also no longer use the top pinky keys anymore.)
I have a vim-inspired modal mapping with three main modes: normal (navigation with arrows, pgup/dn, tab switching, etc.), mouse (to move the mouse), and qwerty (for typing). There is one always-present key for each mode that is dedicated only to switching permanently to that mode. These keys are on each of my thumbs, and the third on my right pinky. Each mode also has several unique (and some shared) temporary layers accessible by temporarily holding other keys.
I use a moonlander keyboard but my thumbs sit on the inside keys on the third row, and my palms on the top larger keys that are intended to be used for thumbs.
Yeah I haven't seen it done elsewhere, but I started doing that because those 2 inside keys on the third row are where my thumbs sit naturally if fully rest my hands.
It's in a bit of a rough state (one folder is for a OLED + RGB Corne r2g, and another is a currently messy adaptation for a Ferris Sweep)
The keymap itself is pretty straightforward. As rgoulter guessed it's just a modification of Miryoku (https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku), with some tweaks I made to keep functionally similar layers "together". E.g. the mouse key and navigation key layers are mirror images of each other. And there's a numpad layer, with nested symbols and function key layers that stack from the initial numpad layer. I also designed it to share the load between both hands as much as possible.
Perhaps unfair to inject a mini-AskHN, but here goes: I'm a Mac user these days, and I have seen that one can go down the rabbit hole with keyboards. I have zero interest in building one. I do have a WASD keyboard, but I've also wanted a bit more, like (better) layers : I have a few fond memories of VT420 life, when those numpad keys and the GOLD/BLUE layers were awesome.) I also don't use Windows...so use of at least some Windows-focused firmware seems less accessible. Reddit seems much more about builds - interesting for keyboard porn and inspiration, I suppose, but not actionable. It also seems many good things are purchased via drops so I suppose that way can work if you know where to go and how long to wait.
I've looked about for a good keyboard with programmable firmware, for a Mac...or even just a programmable numpad-looking macropad, but maybe there's more I've not seen.
What resources are out there to find ways to find off the shelf options, for Macs?
Note: I'm not 100% sure the ZMK list is up to date as it's under much more active development and new keyboards get support all the time since almost any keyboard that has QMK support can get ZMK support by swapping the AmTel-based Pro Micro for a nRF52840-based nice!nano board.
I did find ZMK, thanks! It seems though that - you have to go buy a board and a shield and put stuff together yourself - at least that's how it looked to me.
There's definitely pre-built options out there. On the QMK side you have stuff like the Technik, Keychron, Moonlander, and a lot more. On the ZMK side there's a few options right now but there's some in the pipeline like the new Kinesis 360 "pro" model.
There's also a lot of small companies offering build/modification services if you're not comfortable with a soldering iron but want something more exotic. It's usually not cheap but keyboards are honestly a really expensive hobby.
Thanks! I'll keep looking. I'm not uncomfortable with a soldering iron... but it's just not where I want to spend my time and mental energy these days. I see they're going to be expensive, and that's OK for me. I plan to get one good tool, not start a collection.
I'm only a small bit into this hobby/obsession, but the two keyboards I'd recommend are the Moonlander or the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. They're both split, but the UHK can be combined together (not so easy on the Moonlander.)
They're very popular, so have a bunch of good out-of-the-box documentation and a good out-of-the-box experience if you don't want to go too far into the rabbit hole of configuring keys and stuff.
I think the UHK is a bit more pleasant build-quality wise, and it's definitely easier to start with because it's not columnar, which is a whole other thing that a keyboard can be. (Some people like columnar layouts, some hate it, I'm undecided myself and use both.)
Ergodox-based keyboards might interest you. I use one myself with a Mac. And you could easily set up a specific layer to give you a numpad. There's a bit of a learning curve however: it's a split keyboard with keys arranged in an ortholinear layout. For off-the-shelf options, look into Ergodox EZ.
Check out kmonad. I hear a lot of people try mech keyboards and talk about how much they miss the native Mac keyboards. Kmonad will allow you lots of flexibility with layers and all the basics you get with QMK without having to leave your keyboard.
I'll do that. I already see overlap with Karabiner Elements, but it does seem like everything in this space overlaps everything else, so... par for the course.
Thanks for the tip!
Basically kmonad allows your home row to be modifiers on hold, and Karabiner allows combos [1]. These are both functionalities that are readily available with QMK. Ultimately QMK can do anything you can think of with a little bit of effort. If you aren't set on sticking with the built-in keyboard, the mech keyboard rabbit hole is really wonderful.
Interesting - I do still want to stick with off the shelf. I have a WASD V3 (so no QMK there afiact) but also a MacBookPro - for which I'd happilly buy an [off the shelf] external keyboard to get QMK/ZMK, or really - layers/combos/more-keys-as-macros/etc. Since I'm thinking external, that's why I was looking for off the shelf options where it does seem the firmware is all-powerful.
I occasionally think about getting a mechanical keyboard, because I'd like a nice keyboard. But I have no interest in it as a hobby, and the whole topic has a similar vibe as the audiophile community. I feel like the chance of getting punked is pretty high.
> But I have no interest in it as a hobby, and the whole topic has a similar vibe as the audiophile community.
While the custom keyboard community does tend to get in to pointlessly overcomplicated cables similarly to audiophiles, unlike the audiophile crowd no one really tries to claim they actually do anything beyond looking good.
IMO the keyboard community does a pretty decent job separating the subjective from the objective. People will go deep in to rabbit holes about their preferred feel and sound, but they acknowledge that once you've gone past the entry level basically everything other than ergonomics is pure personal preference and even ergonomics has a lot of personal aspects to it based on your own physical needs, setup, and use case.
You won't find anyone trying to claim that their magical USB cable makes the bits go faster, unlike the audiophile world where $500 ethernet cables are a thing.
You don't need to be part of the "community" to use a mechanical keyboard, it doesn't have to be a hobby, normally mechanical keyboards don't need maintenance and last longer than rubber domes.
As for choosing the right one, the best is to try them out at the store if you can. Find the one that looks and feels the best, buy it, plug it in, done, drop-in replacement. You can't really go wrong, these are just keyboards.
I'd say the only feature you may look for that is not obvious is NKRO (N-key rollover), or the ability to press any number of keys at the same time. If you are paying $100 or more for a keyboard, it is something you want. Most keyboards in this price range have it. 6KRO means you can press any 6 keys at the same time, it is not quite NKRO, but unless you have special needs, it is just as good, 2KRO (2 keys) is the one to avoid. It is sometimes called "anti ghosting" but some manufacturers cheat, so, not a reliable indication.
There are other features like hardware remapping, RGB lighting,... but if you need these, you will know beforehand.
Small caveat though. Many mechanical keyboards, especially in big box stores have clicky switches, clicky switches may be perfectly fine for you, but chances are that people next to you won't like them as much. Please be considerate of your surroundings when using a loud keyboard (are we back into audiophile territory ;))
> You don't need to be part of the "community" to use a mechanical keyboard, it doesn't have to be a hobby, normally mechanical keyboards don't need maintenance and last longer than rubber domes.
I never considered a mechanical keyboard before seeing comments fawning over them. I was already a fast typist and had some strong preferences about keyboard layouts, bindings, ergonomics etc. There was never a huge community around this so I was quite intrigued when I discovered these people who cared so much about their keyboards. Somehow all these years I must have missed out on mechanical keyboards. I tried a few and even the "light" switches are SOOO much more tedious to type on than (decent) modern laptop-style keyboards. Searched around and most in that community seem to take the position that indeed they don't help with typing speeds, or are in fact slower to type on, but they're more "comfortable" (which doesn't make much sense to me). I want a keyboard that's good for typing/using. I don't care if it's "mechanical". Sure, people have their preferences, but this mantra of "mechanical" somehow being inherently advantageous all else be damned originated with that community. When I see people pushing mechanical keyboards I always suspect they've been heavily influenced by them.
As someone who embraced mechanical keyboards, I’m sorry that people get this impression, which is totally deserved. People who use custom keyboards as a signaling mechanism degrade their perceived benefit. For me, programmability of the keyboard is the most important factor; then, ergonomics.
It's surprising to me, as it feels like a development from the last 5 years where the hobbyist community has totally eclipsed the prosumer community.
I had to replace a failed keyboard last year and went looking for advice - when I last did it it was basically a question of "do you want clicky or not switches? Das is a pretty reliable brand but Razer has some stuff with RGB if you like that"
Now it's all "Oh don't buy an off-the-shelf one, wait for this dude's next massdrop order or buy a kit and put it together yourself"
And I just don't have time for that. This is one area where I'm pretty happy just looking for a recommendation for something I can just buy and use.
I'd just get a Keychron in whatever format you prefer, maybe together with a set of keycaps you like. Still fairly cheap compared to going full custom, but definitely respectable performance. I'd always go for hot-swappable switches though, since my last keyboard (a Ducky) developed key chattering issues after a while, and I'd want to fix that if it happened again.
Plenty cheap boards out there with Cherry MX mechanical switches. A first board doesn't have to cost more than $100, maybe even towards $70 dollar range. Buy secondhand and you can go even lower.
Go for Cherry MX Switches. Want clicky (and loud) take blue. Want tactile go brown. Want no bump at all when typing go red.
I would find a cheap second hand board and see if you can appreciate the experience. It probably will not have lubed switches or may have a scratchy bump or hollow sound or whatever the hobbyist tell themselves to justify a new board. You probably will already be amazed by the quality improvement and won't care.
No, black. Red has an extra high activation point and much lighter springs (marketed to gamers for quicker reactions) that often misfires when the user rests his hand on the board and doesn't take special care not to press anything. Black is the standard office class linear one of the bunch with the weight matching brown and blue.
Personally I'm fine with the occasional misfire to keep the nice light, floating typing experience that reds give. Blacks just feel a bit too heavy to me. It's all personal preference of course.
It’s more like fashion than anything else. There are differences and trends but a lot of it comes down to personal taste.
There’s plenty of options now particularly at the lower end of the market the issue here is QC though. Two people can buy the same board but the fit and finish might differ wildly.
I think it depends on how deep you want to go initially. It's very easy to buy a pretty good mechanical keyboard off the shelf, and that's as far as many people need to go. Determine the switches you want, find some decently reviewed keyboards you like the look of, buy it (from a reputable online store).
If you immediately want to spend hundreds on a custom setup and are paying someone you've never met to do it for you, before receiving any kind of product, that's where it can get dicey.
At least with audio it’s really easy to skip the audiophile stuff and still get excellent advice and recommendations as audio work is a huge field with lots of professionals in it and heaps of companies that have been in the industry for 50 years.
Once, someone pointed out to me that we spend a large amount of time with our feet in shoes and our hands on a keyboard, but somehow a closet full of shoes is more readily accepted than even just a pair of keyboards to switch between. I felt good about buying a second keyboard after that
I still regret getting rid of whatever keyboard I had with my Intel 286 PC, probably a Model M from what I read about the times.
Typing was an experience on that thing, like energy flowing through the keyboard into your body, the physicality of the springs was so strong. But strangely I remember typing extremely fast on it, even though it must have needed so much extra force.
I have a decent store bought mechanical keyboard now and it's nice but still very different.
I sold my Model F to a collector, who wrote back to tell me he didn't care for it. I have regretted that sale many times, because I loved that keyboard.
I waited four years for a reproduction (from https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/) plus another year to complete the keycaps. Worth the wait. Expensive and it has an oddball layout, but the typing feel is glorious.
I’ve had a few different mechanical keyboards and they’ve all felt … OK but not great. I bought a Unicomp Model M relatively recently and it has been awesome. Really appreciate the feeling of the keys. Would get absolutely crucified in an office setting but at home, it’s been a real treat.
I'd LOVE to buy a split keyboard, but I can't seem to find any prebuilt that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and soldering my own is not an option (I have some physical issues impairing my precision hand work).
But I have one extra requirement: I am Scandinavian which means that I need to have keys for Nordic letters. This makes me extremely niche which in turn means that I cannot buy anything pre-built.
And I do not find much joy in building my own keyboards. I want something prebuilt.
There must be a business opportunity here for someone to make something that is split, ergonomic keyboard with good mechanical keys and which allows for customization such that Nordic letters could be mapped...
You don't have to get obsessive with it. I have a keychron k7 and I'm absolutely happy with it, no plans of changing anything. Well, I broke the on/off switch when disassembling because I spilled water over it. I contacted them and got new switches. I soldered on one of them and don't plan to open that thing again anytime soon.
If you don't mind a follow-up question: what's a gentle transition from the HHKB's Topre switches into something more popular in the mechanical keyboard community? I honestly have very little intuition about the color-naming scheme for switches.
The colours refer to the original Cherry MX switches and clones but it’s better to refer to them as linears/tactiles/clicky’s.
If you want something tactile good and popular I would suggest Gazzew Boba U4T switches since the Topre board you are using is tactile. These are loud but they sound good. There are silent versions available.
There is a lot of variety even with keyswitches alone and if you are super fussy like me it will take a lot of trial and error to figure out what you like.
Haha ok so now we've got multiple passionate mechanical keyboard experts on the thread so I'm going to ask even more questions!
I grew up on an IBM Model F (I can't believe I let that thing out of my sight, it's probably worth more than I am now), and spent about a decade using just whatever. That thing just felt and sounded wonderful (to the typist at least, I imagine it annoyed my siblings).
When I decided to get something a little more customized to my situation the HHKB hit a lot of the high notes: good, solid tactile finger feel, distinctly audible but (barely) quiet enough to use in an open-plan setting, and a factory no-keycaps option (part of the transition was to break myself of anything but full high-speed touch-type). I had used some Das stuff and it was ok but never really clicked.
I still love these things, and through moves etc. have accumulated a few, but I'd like to indulge myself in something truly tailored to my specific preferences, especially on connectivity, build, and aesthetics.
The HHKB layout is damn-near ideal for a QWERTY-heavy-chorder like myself, but I think I could live with a slightly smaller footprint, it's got a small but noticeable margin for error in excess of what I need anymore.
Ideally I'd like something with multiple USB options, A and C at least. I'd love something heavy, maybe machined metal as a base. And I'd like to stay in the ballpark of the Topre keys on the HHKB. I don't care about `CTRL` or `META` on the right, and I would probably prefer a `SHIFT`, at least on the left, that's the same size as the Sun-style `CTRL` that I have instead of caps lock.
If I've got a few bucks to spend having a real artist put something together that will retain scope for me to tinker on going forward, who do I go to?
I've travelled down the rabbit hole such that I have an Ergodox EZ and am in the process of building a Dactyl Manuform clone. I really can't comment on more typical non-ergo boards (but if you're interested in ergo, I highly recommend the Ergodox EZ). As your reply's parent implies, it's safe to stay with your current switches and focus on trying a board that has QMK (they're a very popular switch that balances weight/travel/actuation/tactility/sound). IMHO, firmware is the real magic with mechanical keyboards.
With all of your specifications, you might enjoy building a keyboard yourself. I'm biased towards this route as I'm taking it myself, but it really lets you get everything you want (except the multiple USB thing, I'm not sure how you would do this). I am a programmer, though, and I wouldn't recommend this if you aren't.
I would suggest browsing the mechanical keyboard subreddit to get an idea of what you like.
When you find a board you like track down the vendor and buy it or pre order it. Honestly it’s not that hard to put together yourself but if time is an issue I understand.
If you decide not to build it yourself find a good local builder. I did this at the beginning through a local Facebook group. They often have twitch/YouTube channels which showcase their work.
Most boards are USBC at the keyboard side and support removable cables.
I would stick with HHKB layout if you can or a 60% layout that supports a similar layout. You could go 40% layout but for me it’s too much mental gymnastics for symbol characters. Get an extra hotswap PCB so you can easily swap out the keyswitches or if the only option is a solder PCB turn it into a hot swap board with mill maxed sockets.
Try and get something with a similar typing angle to the HHKB. Get an extra backup PCB as well.
Am I the only one who prefers the most pleb membrane keyboards over anything mechanical? I already type super quickly on, say, a 2015 MacBook Pro, a default 2010 Apple external KB, or a $5 Logitech. There's just enough feedback to know that I pressed the key, it takes very little force, and I can glide my fingers around really quickly. I don't even bother with cleaning cause the oiliness makes it faster if anything.
I've tried several mech keyboards. The longer key travel doesn't seem to improve speed, and I don't see how it would. Also most of them come with the concave key caps for some reason, which of course you can switch out, but I feel like any amount I spend fixing one would still result in something worse than what I already have.
For me, it's not so much a question of speed, but one of comfort.
The longer key travel helps with avoiding bottoming out once you're used to your keyboard. On a short-travel keyboard, where keys are basically "either fully up or down", I don't think it's easy, or even possible, to not bottom-out.
This also allows keys to not need so much force for actuation. Whenever I switch from my mechanical keyboard to my 2013 MBP or HP laptop (with a similar kb) I always miss letters because I don't press hard enough.
I honestly don't know whether I type quicker or slower on a mechanical keyboard. But speed has never been a limiting factor in my work.
While I was using MBP keyboard, I used to think that shorter key travel was better and more ergonomic, because it required less finger movement. After using mechanical keyboards for years, I’m very surprised to discover how much strain bottoming out puts on my muscles.
The weird thing about key travel to me is that the keyboard isn't an instrument, there's no control or finesse required, it's binary - you want the character or not. When playing an instrument like a piano, you want the level of control (assuming you play better than I do) so long travel makes sense. If playing a guitar at speed, economy of movement is key to accuracy at high speeds - (a) strings should not be any further away from the frets than is required, (b) fingers should not lift any further away than is required, (c) pick should not move miles and miles but just enough to make the required sound.
I enjoy typing on clicky keyboards like my Keychron, but I gotta say, the flawed MBP keyboards of recent times with hardly any travel were amazing. I'm on a 2019 MBP 16 now and it's not as good as the previous one, and the new 2021 MBP isn't much better either.
Ignoring the unreliability and lack of esc key, I liked the tiny travel on the 2016-2018 MBPs, but I didn't like how crowded the keys were. In fact that part seemed objectively bad: The surface area they added does nothing but increase the chance of mistyping, since any reasonably-sized finger hitting the edge of those keys would hit an adjacent key too.
I felt the same and loved the stock macbook keyboards. Now I have a keychron k7, which is "slim" for mechanical keyboards and that's what I prefer. I still don't like proper mechanical keyboards with full height. Feels weird to me. Whatever floats your boat I guess!
I also hate keyboards with a lot of key travel. It feels like I sink into the keyboard and then catch on the surrounding keys when trying to move. The 2015 MBP keyboard was peak keyboard to me. Not only can I not find any PC keyboards with the same feel, I also can't find any PC keyboards with the correct layout.
Key travel is separate from actuation distance. In most mechanical key switches, actuation distance is very short compared to travel. So, the typist doesn’t have to dig deep or bottom out. Hitting only as far as actuation distance requires training, of course. As someone who like MBP keyboards, I prefer mechanical ones.
I don't know what the "correct layout" is for you, but I've found that the MS Sculpt Ergo has a very similar key feel to my 2013 MBP, which, I think, has the same keyboard as the 2015.
I’m the same I guess. I’ve tried a couple of mechs, and now my daily driver is the MS sculpt ergo. I’m happy on a macbook kb, or the cheap membrane kb I have to use at work. The mechs just didn’t have a material advantage for me, and I didn’t like the feel.
I have this IBM PS two mechanical keyboard and I don’t know why but… I don’t really care much for the mechanical keyboards. My first laptop was made by micron, and the keys were very soft and sponge and quiet. The Macbooks from 2012 have a great keyboard.
My first computer was a Macboon Pro from 2012. I replaced it (well, the aluminum unibody, ship of theseus-style) with a 2017 Macbook Pro when I started college. Now I've got so much muscle memory with the Apple layout that at work I use a USB apple keyboard with my ubuntu workstation. My coworkers are almost all mechanical keyboard junkies, and they never let me hear the end of it.
I have assembled 4 or 5 keyboards, the last 2 all have switches assembled from different parts (springs, tops, stems etc bought separately). I don’t really care that much about the shape of the keycaps (cherry profile would do but good to have alternatives), but i am very particular about the layout.
It seems to me the only logical resolution of my keyboard hobby is it design my own keyboard that will address most of my complaints. They are minor but the more I think about it the more I conclude that in the future people would be using fully custom (layout, spacing, etc) keyboards a lot. Unless the typing goes away.
An interesting and slightly unsettling fact about Wrona is that when he competes, he has no strong preference for mechanical or rubber-dome boards, and usually just goes for whatever’s cheapest.
As a fast typist myself (normally 140-160, brief bursts over 200) I can say that being able to type quickly is not something that most mechanical keyboards are optimised for; what's important is a very low actuation force and travel (but a long "cushion zone" past that), since at high speeds caring whether the key was successfully hit will make you hesitate and slow down.
From a reliability standpoint, rubberdome keys seems to be a superior technology. Each and every mechanical keyboard I used developed key chattering after several years (sometimes months) and had to be thrown out eventually. On the other hand I have various rubberdome keyboards that type away without issue after almost a decade of use. Maybe it's just that most modern switches are rubbish, as I've seen people type on old model M keyboards that must have had decades of use, so it might just be a manufacturing issue.
In stark contrast, I've never had a switch fail, but I've had rubber domes wear out and stop registering key presses multiple times when I was younger.
I've never had a Cherry or Kailh switch go bad on me and I'm hard on gear generally. Are you talking about generic switches, if not, how do you do it? Wreck them I mean, I've never heard this complaint before.
I'd had the circuit board fail, two months out of warranty, and the ErgoDoxEZ guy refused to replace it. But that's on his factory's shoddy workmanship, not mechanical keyboards generally.
I can kill a rubberdome keyboard in 3 days. No bullshit. Name brands including Logitech. Never looked back since going with a mechanical keyboard I can quickly swap switches out on. I have a very light touch, I just do a lot of typing.
Yeah, the mechanical keyboard community definitely have specific designs they like and if you're not into the same things then there's not a lot of choice.
I like having a built in USB hub for example. The keyboard is the perfect place to plug memory sticks, hardware wallets, mouse (charge or wireless dongle), utf key. My ideal keyboard probably has at least 3 usb ports on it. The closest I've got so far is the das keyboard with 2.
I've been wanting to try this out recently, but have no idea where to start. I know the basic idea is to go grab KiCad (or preferably something else a bit faster, not Python-based), make something (??), send it off to JLCPCB or whatever, buy all the components you need individually and assemble them, etc. but that's about as deep as my knowledge goes. :/
> I know the basic idea is to go grab KiCad (or preferably something else a bit faster, not Python-based)
Definitely start with KiCad, it's not slow. The majority of it is written in C and C++, but that shouldn't matter if the tool functions well and lets you design what you want to make. It's open source, and perfectly up to the task of designing a keyboard PCB.
After the KiCad work, you generate what are called Gerber files. You zip those up, along with files that describe the parts you'll use, and where they get placed on the board. JLCPCB (or any other PCB fabrication shop) will create your boards, and optionally populate them with parts and solder them.
In the mail you'll get your (potentially populated) PCBs. At that point, you add switches, stabilizers, keycaps, and hope your design works. Maybe design a case or a top plate for it as well if you want more sturdiness or a more "finished" look.
The part you decide at the beginning is if you'll use an off-the-shelf microcontroller (most keyboards use what's called a Pro Micro), or if you'll have the microcontroller soldered directly on the board.
If this is your first PCB, I'd recommend going the Pro Micro route. Leaving that circuitry to a tried and tested board means you focus just on the layout and wiring for your key switches. You can get away with just having the PCB shop solder on diodes for each key, you can solder them yourself, or design them as through hole parts to make the soldering even easier (I prefer soldering surface-mount parts to through-hole but I might just be weird).
There are tons of guides out there on how to do this. I won't recommend a particular one because I didn't use any singular one when designing mine, but I will say that all the KiCad videos on the youtube channel Phil's Lab are extremely valuable and insightful when it comes to PCB design.
Maybe dip your toes in by designing a really simple PCB. You'll quickly see it may not be as complicated as you might have thought. Keyboard PCBs are quite simple in the grand scheme of all the different PCBs out there, so I recommend just jumping right in and learning as you go.
I had my first mechanical keyboard delivered a few days ago and I must say I am thoroughly enjoying the experience. Each key somehow feels nicer. Placebo, or intrinsically more enjoyable sounds and tactile experiences? I believe it's the latter and I find myself particularly enjoying the 'thock' sound of the backspace and space bar.
The trick is to start a mechanical keyboard community at work. Nobody complaints about my Model M anymore buy people are coming over to try it out because it sounds interesting.
I like mechanical keyboards but like you I like silence also when I’m not wearing my noise cancelling ear phones.
Sound comes from the upstroke and the downstroke of the switches and echoes throughout the case.
If you or anyone reading this comment would like to build a near silent board I would suggest getting some Silent Alpaca switches or U4 Silent Tactile switches with switch films applied. Make sure to use all the sound dampening mods available (foam/tape mod/polyfill etc) to deaden any echo inside the case you are using. Avoiding cases that have a lot of echo will help also. Plug the back of the stabilisers with generous amounts of Krytox 205g0 and straighten the wires.
If you do the above the barely audible sound signature of the keyboard will resemble the soft pitter patter of rain.
Silent red, a.k.a. pink switches, might be what you're looking for. The travel is a lot longer than the chiclet Mac keyboard, but you don't have to press all the way down to activate the switch.
Cherry MX Silent Browns are the worst I’ve ever used --- despite that non-silent browns are acceptable. I suggest that you buy a key switch tester to find which one works for you.
You should look into Topre boards. They are very silent and have great tactile feeling. It’s not as quiet as a MacBook keyboard, but it’s as quiet as you’ll get I think
Got their “low end” typeheaven used after hearing about it here. The sensitivity takes some getting used to, but it encourages hard typers like me to soften up, which is better for speed and comfort. Overall love it, totally silent
It's impossible for me to be unbiased because I learned to type on a Selectric, (and I now own two of them) but my personal belief is that typing was perfected with the Selectric, and a Model F or M keyboard with buckling springs is the closest you can get to that perfection on the PC side of things.
The major downside is that people who use mechanical keyboards are almost unbearable to listen to over video (like Zoom) or YouTube or streaming videos due to the incessant and loud clacking of the keys.
That just means the video conferencing software isn't set up right. Millions of teens use mechanical keyboards every day while talking to each other over the internet, all without transmitting the clicks. Anyways, you can still tell the other conferencee to either calibrate his voice activation or change his keyboard.
This reminded me that I’m still looking for a Bluetooth Planck. Ergodox seems to be stuck in the past regarding connectivity options, otherwise I’d have bought a Planck EZ by now.
“….whose Escape key Bassett had replaced with a keycap from a series called Mummy II, made by a keyboard artisan known as PunksDead. “That keycap is rare,” he said. “Right after I got it, a guy offered me three grand for it. And I was, like, ‘Hmmm, tempting—but no.’ ”
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https://youtu.be/H_Ym9528awM
Many have found the mechanical keyboard hobby to be quite deep... When you reach the point when you're ready to start designing your own key switches and actuation mechanisms contact me and I'll give you some advice :)
If you're curious what a 3D printed (analog hall effect) keyboard using 3D printed switches (and keycaps) looks like:
https://gfycat.com/firsthanduniformeasteuropeanshepherd
...and it has some interesting features:
https://gfycat.com/costlyglaringhyracotherium