> Nihilism then?”. The Bible unabashedly says “yes, if you don’t have God”
I am not trying to argue theology here, just giving another perspective.
I was raised an an observant Catholic household, and I went every week from ages 5-19 and missed only a few times due to illness. But I never believed, I just don't have a spiritual bone in my body. None of what you quoted from Solomon about the impermanence of our material acquisitions sounds profound -- it seems obvious.
But the main reason I'm commenting is this idea that non-believers must be nihilists [1]. I want to assure you that I find meaning and purpose in life, but it isn't dictated by some holy person. Pain and suffering and happiness are real and even though we are all reduced back to molecules when we die, what we do and how we act during out lives matters to the people (and wider world) around us during out lives and for a while after we die. I get the same impression from other non-believers. It is a colossal failure of imagination to think that without God people must believe nothing matters.
[1] This footnote is to acknowledge that different people have their own interpretations of what "nihilism" means, and so any statement I make about nihilism will result in some group of people saying "you don't even know what it means!"
> I was raised an an observant Catholic household, and I went every week from ages 5-19 and missed only a few times due to illness. But I never believed, I just don't have a spiritual bone in my body. None of what you quoted from Solomon about the impermanence of our material acquisitions sounds profound -- it seems obvious.
I had a similar upbringing. I attended Catholic schools until college. And the whole time it all just struck me as pageantry. I perceived that it was very real for many of the others, but to me it was as you imply.
Thank God the scales fell from my eyes. Interestingly it was not preaching, but my meditations on the three normative sciences that convinced me of the necessity of God. I realized that culturally Christian atheists conception of ethics is just a more or less attenuated Christian one that will continue to wither as any plant cut from its roots will. I further concluded that the same holds for the other two normative sciences. This was so unsatisfactory to me that I had an epiphany.
> It is a colossal failure of imagination to think that without God people must believe nothing matters.
I haven't ever talked to an unbeliever who believes nothing matters, though I've heard of nihilist philosophers. I suspect non-philosophers who believe in nihilism usually have something from which they're trying to escape; they're not being honest with themselves. Of course each moment matters - it's a time of lived experience for billions of people.
On the other hand, as a Christian, I'm accustomed to thinking a lot about eternal destiny and how things will end up in an ultimate sense. For me, the idea of no God existing opens up a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness I find frightening to imagine -- it would mean when I die, there's nothing more for me; and when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, will anything that transpired previously matter at all?
I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But Christianity is primarily about what to do with that guilt -- that God's son Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine, and he offers forgiveness to those who will trust him and call on his name. (And I'm sure you've heard that before.)
So while I agree stuff matters right now even without belief in a God, for me the meaning of the past and present pale compared to what matters (if anything) in the eternity of time that lies ahead.
> On the other hand, as a Christian, I'm accustomed to thinking a lot about eternal destiny and how things will end up in an ultimate sense. For me, the idea of no God existing opens up a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness I find frightening to imagine -- it would mean when I die, there's nothing more for me; and when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point, will anything that transpired previously matter at all?
I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding.
But that’s the thing, you’re completely failing to understand how a non-believer (speaking for myself) feels about there not being an afterlife. What you’ve said is not in any way how I feel - I die, but the actions and efforts and (hopefully) descendants I put out there go in to hopefully contribute positively, in this magical thing we call life; and even in still there, the bits of me continuing to be recycled in the universe. As someone who has had many psychedelic experiences my non-believer side still has a spiritual axis to it; I can’t believe we all get to walk into a place where everyone who’s ever died is cutting around alive again; and Jesus and some older dude who created the universe sit at the head of the table, but that doesn’t have to be true in order for a life to have meaning, and it’s a failure of imagination (and really, and I don’t mean this to belittle your faith, but ultimately an indoctrinated fear - you use the word yourself - that is- ‘frightening yawning chasm of emptiness’) to believe that unless that is the way it pans out then everything is pointless and people are subconsciously compensating or blocking out that fear because they’re sinners.
“I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding.”
This kind of quite literally holier-than-thou pretension is a large reason why, despite being raised religious, I want nothing to do with it today. Especially Christianity.
Could you elaborate? I certainly didn't mean to imply I'm any better than someone in the position I described. I'm as much guilty of sin as anyone else.
I don't think it's pretentious either to say that all have sinned in some way or another. As Solzhenitsyn writes, the line between good and evil runs right through every human heart -- all are capable of great good and great evil.
>I suppose for those who consciously or subconsciously know they're guilty of sin, the idea of annihilation is far preferable to facing judgment for their sins in the past, so I can see how atheism would be an attractive option, ultimate meaninglessness notwithstanding. But Christianity is primarily about what to do with that guilt -- that God's son Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine, and he offers forgiveness to those who will trust him and call on his name. (And I'm sure you've heard that before.)
Your comment and a lot of others seem to presuppose that atheists don't genuinely not believe in God, there must be some sort of rejection of a God that exists or some conscious/unconscious attempt to avoid taking responsibility for something.
My not being a Christian is really simple. It has nothing to do with my ideas on the bible or morality in general. nothing to do with whether or not I'm a sinner (I agree with you and Christianity that everyone falls very short of moral perfection), it has nothing to do with my personal happiness or making it easier for me to sleep at night.
I simply don't believe that supernatural events exist. Nothing I have heard, discussed, read, watched or experienced in my life has convinced me that supernatural things happen in a general sense or that the specific supernatural things that are essential to believing in Christianity have happened.
Yes, I'm sure it is scary if you have lead your life assuming that there was a blissful afterlife. But you must recognize that that was Jesus' main selling point: follow me and you'll have eternal life. Judaism believed that when a person dies, they are simply gone. Yet somehow they found purpose and meaning and weren't frightened of a yawning chasm of eternal emptiness.
> when we all die and no humans are left, that'll be it for all of us. At that point,
Yup, just like the universe existed for 14B years before humans came along.
> will anything that transpired previously matter at all?
Here is a thought experiment I've heard before. Say I'm really rich and have a tropical paradise, and I invite you to spend a month there. "It'll be great!" I promise, so you come. When you arrive you find I'm actually a twisted genius. I have developed a pill which will completely reset your memory back exactly like it was 30 days prior. In front of you is a spinner which alternates between: "party" and "torture".
I tell you, go ahead and spin. If it comes up on "party," you'll have the most amazing time for the month. You'll have private snorkling trips with Jacques Cousteau's grandson; you'll eat the finest food cooked by 5 star Michelin chef's I have flown in. Name your favorite bands and I'll arrange for them to fly in and perform for you. No expense will be spared to entertain you. But if you spin "torture", oh boy, it will be bad. Nothing that will leave a physical scar, mind you, thinks like waterboarding, being shocked by high voltages, capsacin injected into your urethra, etc. But at the end of 30 days, I'll give you a pill that will wipe any trace of memory from the previous 30 days, no PTSD or future nightmares.
So the question is: does it matter if you spin "party" or "torture"? After all, in 30 days, there will be no memories nor after effects. I'm sure that just about everyone would pick party. Why does the choice matter? Even though the memory of the torture will be wiped out, while you are actually experiencing it it is very real suffering (or joy in the other case).
To someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife, the fact that all of our memories dissolve when we die (in the case of dementia, even before we die) and nothing outlives our body, the joy and suffering we experience in life matter.
> ... sin ...
Look up the definition of sin: transgression of God's moral law. As someone who doesn't believe in God, I also don't believe in sin. I believe some events are good and some are bad, but I don't believe in sin. I am consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting God by transgression His laws to the exact same degree you are consciously or unconsciously worried about upsetting Odin for transgressing his wishes.
I said originally I don't want to argue theology. I was just pointing out that non-believers are not nihilists, contrary to the claim of the person I was responding to. I have lots of thoughts about the other things you've written, but this doesn't seem like the right forum for them.
None of what you quoted from Solomon about the impermanence of our material acquisitions sounds profound -- it seems obvious.
Of course, the answer is always obvious when you've been provided it beforehand.
You state that as-if you somehow shipped from the womb knowing wisdom, when in fact that implicit knowledge you take for granted has been lived and transferred by your ancestors and most certainly derived from your own social and spiritual milieu.
Let me ask some questions. Do you think Solomon was the first person to realize this, did he come up with this de novo? Or, perhaps, he was also a product of his cultural environment. Is it possible that he has been lionized by the hagiography that surrounds him to make it seem as if nobody had ever had such moral insights until he came along? Do you think it is likely or unlikely that cultures which don't have any Abrahamic tradition have also arrived at the same conclusions?
More importantly, whatever contributions Solomon's wisdom has had on our culture, there are thousands of other competing (and often contradicting) ideas in the milieu. Even if Solomon was the author of the wisdom ascribed to him, it isn't obvious to me that those ideas are at the center of our culture or at the forefront of everyone's thoughts, and so it isn't "obvious [that it has] been provided beforehand."
I can pinpoint when I had my own epiphany. Probably like many people on HN, I did quite well in school. I took standardized tests every year starting in grade 1 and a few weeks later I'd receive a breakdown of what percentile I scored in math, vocabulary, reading, etc, and a combined score. I wouldn't say I had an ego about it, but it was planted in my mind that I was smart and would grow up and do great things: maybe I'd invent something amazing, or discover some deep scientific principle.
Early in high school I had the thought: no matter what I do, it is unlikely that I'll ever be as famous as, say, US President John Tyler, and nobody gives a damn about him. In fact, very few people achieve lasting fame, eg Jesus or Buddha or Isaac Newton. Heck, I don't give a moment's thought about my great grandparents. Each of us is just a ripple in a pond, and as the diameter of our ripple gets larger, its amplitude shrinks. Conceptually, the effects last forever, but only in the most diffuse, indirect manner. Thus my goal became not to do something great that would impress everyone, but to focus on making a positive difference to the people nearest me in space and time; everything else that ripples out of that is gravy.
Why tell this story? Because culturally I had been programmed, and I still see it in full force, that fame and influence are desirable goals. Look at how many people try to become influencers on social media, or do the dumbest things on youtube or tiktok to get eyes to look at them. Yet despite that programming, that thought really changed my life philosophy. Just a realization to a sheltered 14 or 15 year old, so I'm sure there are many people who have had similar thoughts.
I think you're not driving far enough to the conclusion of what you're saying. If there is no afterlife, then eventually there will be nobody left in the world, in which case nothing that anyone had ever done or said would have really mattered.
I completely disagree. Scan this thread for my thought experiment about the pill that wipes your memory back to the state it was 30 days ago. I haven't overlooked the point you are making.
> If there is no afterlife, then eventually there will be nobody left in the world,
Whether or not there is an afterlife, it is inevitable that the earth will become uninhabitable. It seems far more likely that humans will die off before that becomes a problem.
> in which case nothing that anyone had ever done or said would have really mattered
Like the old joke about fish not being aware of water, I think people who have spent their entire lives in a Christian mindset forget that the novel thing Jesus was offering was an afterlife. Many cultures and religions believe a person simply stops existing when they die (including Judaism), yet the people without a belief in the afterlife still seem to care if they are happy or miserable.
Let me try another tack along the lines of the thought experiment I stated elsewhere in the thread. Christians believe in a personal soul that outlives the body it is tied to. I'm sure some Christians might think that some animals have souls as well, but I'll go out on a limb and say most don't believe, say, a beetle, has a soul. If you came across me torturing beetles with salt, or fire, or pulling their legs off, you'd rightfully think I'm a horrible person. Why would it matter? After all, the beetle has no soul and will be dead in a few months anyway. It is because even though the pain is temporary, it is very real while the beetle lives through it.
Jews did believe in an afterlife - read about Sheol, for example. Not sure where you got that idea from. They thought that death was permanent, but that is a very different thing from thinking there's no afterlife. There are also two Old Testament figures - Enoch and Elijah - who were brought up into heaven. What Jesus taught that was new in this regard is a bodily resurrection.
Also, all animals have souls according to Catholicism, and so do plants. The distinct thing about humans is that we have rational souls. But the soul is the form of any living thing.
Torturing an animal is wrong because it does harm to God's creation for no legitimate purpose. A theist doesn't have any problem explaining this - it's the atheist/materialist who does.
To be fair, several (at the time) large religious groups believed in a spiritual afterlife. What disgusted many Greeks & Romans was the concept that a _bodily_ afterlife was the ultimate destiny of a human.
In Stoic virtue ethics, practical wisdom (phronesis) is the central virtue. But it doesn’t mean pursuing book knowledge, it means learning how to handle, think about and navigate all aspects of life well. In short, how to live “the kind of life worth living” (eudaimonia).
There might not be one because a morality requires considering others, but simply pursuing knowledge does not. Unfortunately, you’ll soon have to reckon with how that knowledge affects your actions in order to call it a morality.
I am not trying to argue theology here, just giving another perspective.
I was raised an an observant Catholic household, and I went every week from ages 5-19 and missed only a few times due to illness. But I never believed, I just don't have a spiritual bone in my body. None of what you quoted from Solomon about the impermanence of our material acquisitions sounds profound -- it seems obvious.
But the main reason I'm commenting is this idea that non-believers must be nihilists [1]. I want to assure you that I find meaning and purpose in life, but it isn't dictated by some holy person. Pain and suffering and happiness are real and even though we are all reduced back to molecules when we die, what we do and how we act during out lives matters to the people (and wider world) around us during out lives and for a while after we die. I get the same impression from other non-believers. It is a colossal failure of imagination to think that without God people must believe nothing matters.
[1] This footnote is to acknowledge that different people have their own interpretations of what "nihilism" means, and so any statement I make about nihilism will result in some group of people saying "you don't even know what it means!"