Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Super Wood (2018) (scientificamerican.com)
78 points by simonebrunozzi on Dec 19, 2020 | hide | past | favorite | 46 comments


This is one of my favorite paths forward for long term CO2 reduction.

About 360 million years ago, there was something called the Carboniferous Period[1]. This was the 60 million year period after wood had evolved, but before anything had figured out how to eat it. Trees just piled up and piled up over the millennia sucking out a ton of carbon from the air and leaving an insanely high oxygen ratio, which lead to the evolution of large, high energy creatures with crazy high metabolisms that wouldn't be sustainable with modern oxygen ratios.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous

I love the idea of kicking off a second carboniferous period as we finally realize how to fully utilize the power of wood, and start treating it more like programmable diamond, sucking in the carbon from the air around it, and growing into incredibly strong shapes for any purpose.


Mine too. Interestingly, there's some suggestion that lack of lignin-degrading processes in nature at the time is more of a myth than anything. Instead, a unique combination of climate and tectonic activity drove the high rate of coal production at that time: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4780611/

IMO if we ever want to start taking sequestration via this method seriously it's trivial to start now - Grow fast trees(e.g. Maple, Pine). Log trees. Bury trees deep underground. Repeat. All the tech exists, is ubiquitous, and trivially easy to de-carbonize in itself. The major sticking point, I'd argue the solitary issue, is there's no money to be made in it.


> and growing into incredibly strong shapes for any purpose.

This makes me think of Lothlórien[0], the living bridges[1], or grown furniture[3].

[0] https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3b/00/fa/3b00fa449cf206aebf6a...

[1] https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/adventure/2019/11/livin...

[2] https://www.creativespotting.com/2016/03/man-grows-natural-c...


As the article mentions, densified wood already exists as a product [1]. But it's basically never used for building materials. As far as I can tell it's main use-case is for electrical transformer support pads and anchorage, as you need a strong, non-conductive material for that. So right now it's a fairly niche product.

I'm not an expert, but as far as I know existing densified wood is basically stronger by virtue of cramming more material closer together - the wood fibers themselves don't change mechanical properties at all, there's just more of them in a given area. So your strength increases are paired with an increase mass as well. If this actually increased the strength of the wood fibers, that would be interesting.

It's an interesting technique, but we already have processed wood products that offer significant strength gains over natural lumber [2], and they haven't displaced regular wood all that much. Normal sawn lumber is often strong enough, and it's just incredibly inexpensive. So it's unclear how much difference another stronger, processed wood product would make to the building market (I can't speak to other uses like body armor or vehicles).

I think long term, the most potential for wood improvement lies with improved trees that grow stronger, faster, and with fewer natural defects. Most agricultural products have been deliberately bred for desirable traits for thousands of years, but we've only just begun to do this with trees. (I wrote more about this here: https://constructionphysics.substack.com/p/stronger-faster-c... )

(Source: structural engineer, formerly worked at a mass-timber focused construction startup).

[1] - https://www.roechling-industrial.com/us/products/composites/... [2] - https://www.mjbwood.com/lsl-lumber/#:~:text=LSL%20Lumber%20(....


They claim its weight-to-strength ratio is six times greater than steel.

https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/news/new-densified-wood-...


I thought the main application for this new material was just a cheaper hardwood. Take pine, boil it, compress it, heat it, and you have cheap ironwood. Should make for longer lasting construction materials, right?


Offhand can you think of any improvement here over existing lumber products like LVLs?


Around here (San Francisco) the primary use of this kind of wood is for decks. It stands up very well in the weather and it's lovely. Popular is used a lot here for this process. The color changes to a rich, dark color.

I've been wanting to get some to work with but it's special order. Apparently this process is reasonably available now as one of the mills in Marin produces it. Unfortunately decking, eg. boards 1" think or less, seem to be the only kinds available. At least at the retail level.



Year added above. Thanks!


Process-wise I think this is an industrial version of what NileRed [0] and prior AvE [1] tried. Pretty cool, if it's truly a durable alternative.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1H-323d838 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=880a_XgvBEo


Right, it seems the first step is analogous - breaking down the lignin with base and sulfite. But instead of impregnation with resin, the wood is squished and heated to re-form the crosslinking bonds.


Except NileRed didn't heat and compress the wood afterward, and removed all the lignin. The article mentions only removing some lignin.


Several of the new mid-rise buildings in Atlanta, including Facebook's new office building, are all-wood construction using new techniques [1, 2].

This is currently the largest timber building in the US [3], and they've announced they're building more.

I imagine this is going to become booming business.

[1] https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/3/19/21186363/facebook-atlan...

[2] https://www.ajc.com/business/real-estate/midtown-wood-frame-...

[3] https://structurecraft.com/projects/t3-atlanta



That's extraordinary and looks gorgeous.


Any ideas how to get involved in such businesses? I love the idea of renewables and the like, but I'm not familiar at all with that space.


None of them use "Superwood".


It's a sign of a new trend for building with renewables. They're already breaking records with laminate construction. With new tech to push the boundaries even further, we might see this taking over from steel and concrete.

This is pretty great for carbon sequestration.



Great that it can stop a bullet. Can you drive a nail into it? Or operate on it with off the shelf drills and saws?


One of the advantages I didn't see compared was 'machinability' I wonder if you're able to CNC the densified wood in the same way you would as the metals mentioned in the article without compromising it's strength.


I am absolutely ectatic about getting transparent wood windows fitted in my wooden house! That would be so amazing!

... but then I remember how they don't build wooden houses in Palestine :-(


The whole "transparent wood" thing is such a scam. It's PLASTIC. A process removes nearly all of the wood from the material, then replaces it with transparent plastic, and somehow it's still marketed as "wood".


The story does not suggest the wood is removed and replaced, but rather transformed. Can you please elaborate?

Specifically, will this material feel like plastic rather than wood? Behave like plastic rather than wood?


Why don't they? What do they use instead?


They barely build them here in the UK. The US has an abundance of wood, so you can build wood framed wood clad houses cheaply.

Palestine is not only without forests but semi-embargoed; it looks from the news footage that cement block or hollow brick are common.


Only the West Bank and Gaza are embargoed; but I live in Haifa which is under Israeli control.

In the far past, stone was common; and indeed, today it's cement and hollow bricks. Both in the 1948-occupied parts (= Israel) and the 1967-occupied parts.


A lot of the middle east use some sort of stone or mud/dirt. Partly because lumber is not as plentiful and earthquakes are not much of a thing. Plus concrete / stone has better sound privacy characteristics and doesn't catch on fire.


Actually, earthquakes _are_ a thing in eastern Palestine - it's right next to this major fault line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian-African_Rift_Valley

we have very-minor earthquakes occasionally, and I think a major earthquake once a century or so.


It would be great to see a video of what they're talking about, where they tap/sound/heft the wood and show it live, to illustrate the properties.


Does anyone know if this could be used to build high-rises? I imagine it has enough strength for a 10 story building, but the fire risk might be too high.


Contrary to what people believe, timber actually has very good fire resistance characteristics: https://csengineermag.com/fire-design-of-mass-timber-members...

No need for densified wood to build midrises, structured timber products like CLT (basically, fancier plywood) are already being used to construct 5 - 10 story buildings with the tallest wooden skyscrapers being planned at 20 - 70 stories tall: https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/wooden-skyscraper-revo...



Cross-laminated timber is already being used for 10-story buildings today.

Here's an 18-story one: https://www.dezeen.com/2019/03/19/mjostarne-worlds-tallest-t...

And there's a 12-story one in Portland: https://www.archpaper.com/2017/06/framework-portland-timber-...


Incredible stuff. How come this isn't more prominent?


Cost and navigating building codes.


Walmart's new HQ campus will be made of wood (CLT). https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2019/12/09/modern-hom...


There's also the HoHo Building in Vienna, 84m and 24 stories: https://www.woschitzgroup.com/en/projekte/hoho-vienna-wooden...


This could be interesting for wooden boats as well.


There really needs to be research into breeding or creating trees that grow straight and to tens of meters in the span of a year or two provided a super diet that isn’t naturally found in the ground.


Stronger than steel? At what thickness?


Pound for pound.


Didn't read the article, yet. But some types of wood are stronger than steel by weight.


It's cool but is is from 2018; why now?


Hacker News is somewhat of a misnomer: submissions don't have to be new. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There is a convention of putting the year of origin in the title, though, which this submitter didn't do. Moderators will occasionally add it to a title, if they see it.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: